Morning Extras: Do We Have Any Hall of Famers?

Calling all legends! Calling all legends!

Still basking in the glow of a championship in Philadelphia, for the first time in a quarter century we've had a team – a cohesive unit of players – that reached the pinnacle of their profession. For years, especially when some teams weren't all that competitive, we could only hang out hats on the bevy of individual stars we had the honor of watching. This town has been blessed with some huge names in sports, and some legit Hall of Famers.

In doing some research for my interview with JE Skeets last night (funny that Enrico and I actually did not talk about the interview until after he linked to the BBall Jones) I wrote a question about Allen Iverson and how he went from being a Philadelphia lifer to NBA journeyman in three years. Skeets even suggested during the show that it's not out of the realm of possibility that Iverson will be traded AGAIN this year.

But AI got me to thinking. There's no doubt that Iverson is a Hall of Famer. But since he's moved on, are there any Hall of Famers left?

Yes, many people look at Donovan McNabb's numbers and say he's a Hall of Famer. He is a five-time Pro-Bowler and has throw for, to date, 27,776 yards in his career with a completion percentage of 58.9%. For comparison, Peyton Manning has been named to the Pro Bowl eight times, and has thrown for 43,874 yards while completing 64% of his passes in one more season of play.

That said, John Elway only completed 56.9 percent of his passes and people make the case that he's the best quarterback of all time. Oh yes, he has two Super Bowl titles and was there five times in his career. Elway boasts a 14-7 career record in the playoffs. McNabb is 7-5 in the post season, and inexplicably has not played in a post season game or been named to the Pro Bowl since 2004.

If you look at the Hall of Fame quarterbacks, every one of the 23 names from the modern era has either won a Super Bowl, been named All-Pro or MVP or in the case of Jim Kelly, took his team to the championship game four times. Even Warren Moon was an All-Pro in 1990 and he got in based on his years in Canada as well.

Factoring in Brett Favre, Manning and even Tom Brady, McNabb's numbers look favorable against guys like, say Matt Hasselbeck, but not against anyone in or slated for the Hall of Fame.

So basically, McNabb needs to win a championship to be a lock. If he gets there again, or makes a few more Pro Bowls, he'll have the best case. But after him, who else? Dawkins? Runyan? Maybe. Westbrook is the team's best player, but he only has 5,223 rushing yards in his career. Terrell Davis had that in just over two seasons and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Maybe Westbrook can become a Hall of Famer, but is he one now?

The Sixers are far too young to have anyone who might be a Hall of Famer. Elton Brand is a nice player, but I don't think he's reached the Hall of Fame level just yet.

The Flyers don't have anyone that seems close. Sure, they have talented youngsters as well, but if their careers ended today, would you even remember some of these guys, let alone consider them as legends. Maybe Derian Hatcher has the career pedigree to be considered, but not necessarily for his play in Philadelphia. Besides, when you think of him, do you immediately think Hall of Fame?

The Phillies are the most interesting case. Twenty years ago, Pat Burrell might have Hall of Fame numbers, but not in the era he's playing in now. Ryan Howard and Chase Utley are on pace, but they wouldn't even make the ballot if they quit the game right now. But the most interesting case might be Jamie Moyer. If he keeps going the way he's going, he will get some serious consideration. Hall of Fame voters love those slop-armed veterans.

Gone are the Mike Schmidts and Steve Carltons. Gone are the Dr. J's and Charles Barkleys. Gone are the Bernie Parents and Bobby Clarkes and even Eric Dejardins Desjardins.

Also gone are the Iversons, the Lindroses, the Abreus, the TOs.

So I ask you, commenters, are we living in an era when Philadelphia has no Hall of Famers? And isn't rooting for a championship team so much better than one great player?

SOME GOOD LINKS:

• First link goes to Soft Pretzel Logic, which has put out a new Philly-region college basketball poll. It will be updated each week, and yours truly is a voter. Send me your suggestions every week and we'll see how the season shakes out.

• Next, Enrico has a story on Fanhouse about McNabb taking Ocho Cinco under his Wingo. Couldn'ta done that a few years ago with another petulant wideout, eh Five?

• Commenter Andy Tulin wrote for examiner.com that Andy Reid should be fired for the holidays. Give him hell like he gives it to us. (He's actually quite nice).

• Sam Donnellon says that Charlie Manuel should have been the Manager of the Year and anyone who doesn't agree was just star struck with the likes of Sweet Lou and Joe Torre and Tony Larussa. Even though Charlie finished ahead of two of those three.

• We'll get back to the photo tomorrow. For the last point, please click here to read my look on washingtonpost.com at the Sunday Night Football production by NBC and Al Michaels and John Madden. It's long, but it's a quick read. Let me know here, or there, what you think of it.

Comments

[mjd211]

dawkins and moyer have the best shot as of right now. Moyer has 246 career wins as a southpaw, which is 11th most all time. He's got a 4.19 ERA, pitching mostly in the AL. 2248 strikeouts to just 1074 walks. And he's got a ring.

[WEAPONX20]

I think that there has to be some serious consideration with Dawkins. He doesn't put up league leading numbers, but the way he plays definetly changes the course of the game. Look at the 2004 NFC game. 1st quarter Alge Crumpled catches a ball for 25ish yds, Dawk rocks him, Crumpler does nothing for the rest of the game. I don't mean his impact was miniscule, Crumpler didn't catch another ball the rest of the game. Now, you can't tell me that Brian Dawkins wasn't in the head of every other reciever on the field. I think when you have a player who can change the pace of a game with 1 tackle, that's hall of fame caliber.

[Andy]

I think Dawk's a lock. I also think at least one of the Phils' current nucleus eventually has the numbers to get in. Finally...does Brendan Shanahan count?

[Lehigh Chris]

We already have a hall of famer.
The Pennridge-Quakertown Sports Hall of Fame inducted him earlier this month. Who needs MLB hall of fame when you've got Pennridge-Quakertown!

Good write over at wp.com although probably wouldn't be as interested if the game involved someone other than the Eagles. NBC has turned football into such a theatrical presentation. I guess it all has to do with attrating a wider audience. It's beginning to get out of hand. I can't even imagine what gadget will be introduced next year.

[theKrisheim]

i love dawkins but he isnt going to make the hall of fame

john lynch gets in, dawkins doesnt

safety isnt a glamorous position and the only guy from our generation to make it is ronnie lott

[Jeff]

Cole Hamels? I mean we are EARLY in his career, but isn't that the point? His win totals can be overlooked since he lost most of his game by a run. He has an NLCS and a WS MVP, a ring, and he's going to continue a pretty good SO to BB ratio, while racking up a lot more wins over the rest of his career. I guess for him it will come down to durability. Ryan I guess. But will his career SO's and poor fielding count against him? I really don't know how that works. B Dawk should get in, and I am trying to think of that objectively instead of being a homer.

[chris]

pat gillick stil count?

[James Beale]

Dawk is a lock, no one else is close.

[Zack]

I think Ryan Howard started his pro career too late...and I can honestly see him not with the Phillies in a few years but being a DH in the AL somewhere.

My vote would be for Dawkins. Anyone with a rating as high as he had in Madden for all those years has to make the Hall of Fame...right?

[Kulp]

Dawk is almost certainly a lock. The safety position has really changed in in the past decade to more athletic players who can not only lay a big hit over the middle, but also play a greater role in coverage and blitzing. Safeties are asked to do more today than they used to.

Dawkins really was the first guy in this mold, and he paved the way for guys like Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. There are going to be safeties that have or finish with better numbers than Dawk, but the NFL Hall of Fame is all about once in a generation players, guys that really redefined the sport. You can't talk about a lot of the players in the NFL today if you don't mention Brian Dawkins first.

[Andy]

@Krisheim I think both Lynch and Dawkins get in because they played the position in such different ways during their prime. If anything, I actually think that gives Dawk the edge, as Lynch was never nearly as talented in coverage as Dawk, but Dawk was every bit the tackler Lynch was. Also, I have to dispute the notion that Ronnie Lott is from the same generation as Dawk. Their careers had zero overlap and, truth be told, Lott was a shell of himself at the end.

[zfg]

It's an outside shot at best, but if Lidge stays as good as he's been, he might deserve some consideration.

[Chris]

Dawkins should make it eventually, being along with Reed one of the two best safeties of his era, but it'll take a while since the NFL HOF is an absolute crock of shit about making players wait unless they're QBs or RBs...I mean Kevin Greene retired third all-time in sacks, first all time for LBs, and made the 90's all-decade team and he couldn't even make the finalists his first couple years of eligibility...

McNabb has no chance, as much as his apologists love to fellate him, the truth is he's a guy who had good mobility early in his career and a cannon arm, but never developed any touch and always had accuracy issues, and who had a habit of choking in big games...the sad thing is he probably had HOF talent, but got saddled with a coach who coddled and kid gloved him instead of pushing him...

As for Moyer, I'm not seeing it...not when guys like Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris can't get in...

[theKrisheim]

lynch has more pro bowls and the ever important ring

i agree with you about dawkins changing the position, but writers care about stats and when it comes down to it, lynch will get and dawkins won't

also, i was saying ronnie lott was from our generation, meaning guys in their 20s - 30s who have grown up watching football, not dawkins vs lott, cause that comparison isnt even close, lott is not only HOF, but all-time great

[Ron]

I'm not saying he's a lock or anything, but if J-Roll kept his pace for 5-7 more years he would have to be considered... Yes this was an off year, but he is a great player.

In this, the age of the shortstop, he's been an MVP, a team leader on a World Series wining club and he is the all time leader in fielding percentage for a shortstop.

Ryan may have gotten off to a late start, but his numbers won't be denied. They are of historic proportions. No one has done what he's done with power numbers... Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson, Mark McGuire, Dave Kingman... No one. If he can bat .270 for his career and hit 500 HRs, he's a shoe in.

[jon]

Moyer would go in as a Seattle Mariner.

[Kulp]

@ Chris

I wouldn't be so hasty to call the NFL HOF voting a crock. I can't say I agree with every decision they make, but it's not entirely true only QBs and RBs are first ballot inductees. CB Darrell Green was just this year inducted his first chance. Last year, it was WR Michael Irvin and OT Bruce Matthews. In '06, DE Reggie White.

Prior to that, they were only voting four or five guys per year, and there was no seniors committee, so recent players had to battle it out with the guys who built the game. With the addition of the seniors committee, now up to four spots are available for everybody else, making it easier for deserving players to get in on their first or second shot.

@ Krish

If numbers and rings were the only things that mattered, Art Monk would have been first ballot, or Kevin Greene as Chris pointed out.

[Chase Mutley]

It might be premature to say this, but I truly can see Chase Utley, when all is said and done, being remembered as one of the best second basemen to ever play the game. That would certainly make him HOF worthy.

[Mr. Bryan]

@Lehigh Chris, don't diss my alma matter, Panthers on the prowl! You know the networks are working out the glitches on that hologram garbage they used on election night. Wait til Siragusas fat ass is beamed down onto the field in the middle of a play.

[theKrisheim]

you cant compare the safety position to WR or DE

[jivfly]

Come on, spell "Desjardins" correctly

[Dan Levy]

@ jivfly, sorry...it was early. I knew something didn't look right. Fixed.

[Kulp]

Alright Krish, say we do it your way and go by numbers.

Lynch does lead Dawk in Pro Bowls 9-6, but they have the same number of of All Pro selections which is the greater honor. Also, all four of Dawk's All Pro selections are first team compared to only two of Lynch's. Also, with regard to Lynch's Pro Bowls, he plays strong safety as opposed to free safety, which is relevant because of the three safeties chosen to the Pro Bowl every year in each conference, two are more often strong safeties.

Dawkins is also a member of the 20 sacks/20 interceptions club, one of only three safeties to reach this milestone. Lynch isn't even close. Dawk has seven more sacks and seven more picks in two fewer seasons.

Lynch may have a ring, but Dawkins is the winningest player in Eagles history. The fact that they have not won a Super Bowl isn't exactly his fault and it's a standard that has not proven to hold up for truly great players.

I would say Dawk's real competition is Rodney Harrison, a guy who does actually have better statistics, but I considering no safeties have been selected since Lott, I would not be surprised if both guys made it considering that the position has become more important in the past decade.

[Ron]

Ed Reed has to get a mention, too.
As much as it pains me to say it, Dawk's on the outside looking in...

[Dubs]

I don't think anyone really holds the lack of a ring against any position except for quarterback. Even then, it's not entirely a fair critique, as football is obviously a team sport, where you can be an all time great stuck in bad situations (see Archie Manning).

[will]

kevin sefsic in 09

[Dan]

Jamie Moyer will never, ever, ever be in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

He has been a very good player for portions of his career, but overall he's just been a little above average (6% above average in terms of ERA, the prime indicator of a pitcher's success).

[enrico]

Nobody cares about your last name.

Also, I think On the DL needs some sexier intro music and less Mayor Nutter. Maybe some Wu Tang intro music? Okay good.

[Dan Levy]

I'm just happy that means you actually listened.

And I like the music. Daulerio said it sounds like we're in a Jewish deli, and I'm happy with that. Come on over, we'll have a nosh and kibitz for a while.

[T]

Hamels definitely has the most potential. But he also has to continue this for 8-10 more years... he could though, he really could.

Utley could be the greatest offensive second baseman of all time when he retires... If he is, he will make a case for himself.

Dawkins... I really don't know. He gets so much love in Philadelphia, but is he really that recognized by the rest of the country? We'll find out when he retires.

[SHough610]

I think that McNabb gets in with a few more good seasons and is a lock with a Super Bowl ring. McNabb and Brady are interesting in that they played most of their careers without a top-flight WR's (interestingly, to date both have only had one season with a WR who is GREAT, Brady with Moss last season and McNabb with TO) and had career years. I think that the ten year era from '99-'08 is going to be remembered for Brady, Manning, and McNabb (in that order).

I think Dawkins is a lock, Dawkins and Rodney Harrison turned the safety from a defensive back to a hybrid defensive back/linebacker. Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, etc. are from that mold.

I think Iverson goes in and goes in as a 76er, was anyone else so born to play in Philly?

As for the Phillies... I think Moyer might squeak in, but that's because of the second half of his career. Also, you can't judge Jimmy, Ryan Howard, and Chase for a few more years. They're in their primes, the next 3-5 years are critical to how they're remembered. Cole has 10-12 years to cement his legacy. Look at Schilling, I think that 2001-2004 put him in the Hall of Fame.

[Blendy]

Utley's got the best shot out of all the Phils. 2nd Base is the easiest position to make Cooperstown with solid offensive numbers, so long as you're not horrible defensively, which Chase is not (see: pumps to first, throws out at plate in WS). Barring any serious injury (/knocks on wood) I can't foresee Utley not putting up the requisite numbers to make the Hall just in the next 5 years alone.

[HLH]

Dawkins is a Hall of Famer.......Cole Hamels should be one day. And maybe Desean Jackson if he continues to get better and stays healthy.

[TJB]

Eagles
Definite: Dawkins
Iffy: McNabb, Runyan
Keep Doing What You're Doing: Westbrook

Phillies
Def: None
Iffy: Moyer (I say not unless he somehow gets to 300 wins)
KDWYD: Howard, Utley, Hamels

[KidCarnivore]

No way in hell does Moyer get in. Utley should and might, Dawk should and will not.